Vitality CBD Presents: CBD Talk Podcast - Episode #3
Welcome to the second Vitality CBD Presents, a series where we transcribe podcasts from across the industry to provide you with a more rounded view of CBD, and to provide greater accessibility for deaf CBD users. We believe that the more we share information on CBD, or cannabidiol, the better.
Our second pick is a podcast called CBD Talk Podcast, hosted by Harley Damico. Joined by guest Evan Clinthorne, they cover a lot of interesting new topics, including how nano-technology is changing the way we take CBD. While we don’t support the medical claims made, it does offer an interesting insight into how the American CBD market differs from the UK one.
Dawn: Welcome to the May 18th edition of CBD Talk podcast. Today's guest is Evan Clinthorne, scientist and lab director at Ambary Gardens. And here's our host, Harley Damico, to get things started.
Harley: Good evening, everybody. Welcome to CBD Talk podcast. This is your host, Harley Damico. Tonight's gonna be a pretty educational night. The guest tonight is Evan Clinthorne. We're currently waiting on him to call in right now.
Evan: Hi, Harley. Can you guys hear me okay?
Harley: Hi there, Evan.
Evan: Hey, thanks for hosting me tonight, Harley. It's a pleasure to be here.
Harley: No worries Evan. So, before we get started, I was wondering if maybe you could just go ahead and let everybody know a little bit about yourself, a little about your background and where you came from, and how you ended up in Colorado.
Evan: Great. So, well, I guess, long story short, I went to school in Virginia. I grew up in Virginia for the most part and I've got a degree in Biotechnology that I got from James Madison University. So, after I graduated, about 2011, I worked for Merck Pharmaceuticals for a little while. I was doing research in therapeutic protein for them. I did process design and process classification, process validation, so I'm pretty well versed with the therapeutic side. I would be going through about maybe four or five airlocks on a daily basis in booties and jumpsuits. This was a seriously good manufacturing process facility, the GMP facility.
Although I was helping people doing that, it wasn't my true calling. I've always been fascinated with cannabis as a medicine and so in about 2012, 2013, I moved out to Colorado and worked for a company called Quantum 9 for about a year. I had the pleasure of working with Ed Rosenthal, he would review some of my papers. He was a great guy. After that, I worked for a dispensary. I worked for them for maybe 18 months and I guess my main job for them was communicating plant movements to the marijuana administrative service here in Colorado. It's called MITS.
Harley: So you've been in the industry out here in Colorado since about 2014?
Evan: Yeah, 2013, 2014, I got my start out here.
Harley: Right, so, a lot of people that don't know, a dispensary is a place where they sell medical marijuana. They also have recreational dispensaries out here in Colorado. The medical ones, you have to go through evaluation with the doctor and they have to prescribe the actual prescription for you to be able to go into those medical facilities. So, being in the THC side, did you really see a lot of CBD back in 2014, when you first started?
Evan: Oh my gosh. I started 2013, 2014. I hadn't really even heard of CBD, aside from Charlotte's Web, which obviously was... It was actually one of the reasons that brought me out to Colorado. The story really touches my heart. You know, using cannabis healing as a medicine, again, and the fact that they were able to work with this little girl and help her seizures without getting her high, was just absolutely amazing to me. But I actually didn't have my first experience with CBD until maybe about late 2014, maybe mid-2014, somebody gave me my first CBD extract and my world changed. My eyes were opened to the other possibilities of some therapeutic cannabinoids that were non-psychoactive.
Harley: All right, and coming from working in the industry, I'm in the industry as well, so it's pretty crazy to see how far CBD has come in that year-and-a-half, two years that we're at right now. Because, back then, it wasn't even sought after, it wasn't even really known about. People didn't even know how it affected the body. So, now that we're actually getting more experienced with it, we're starting to learn what it does in the body, exactly how it bonds to things and what kind of symptoms it helps.
So, what exactly brought you really into the CBD realm, since you were already in the dispensary and you were working with those types of products, what made you want to really get into CBD?
Evan: Well, like I said, one of the reasons that I dragged myself out here to Colorado was the idea that I could really help people with cannabis as part of a therapy. And CBD is... I just thought that it was a niche business. It's very special because, working on the dispensary side, most plants that yield CBD either yield in very low amounts or the plant itself doesn't actually yield very much.
So, from a monetary standpoint, if you have other plants in the building that yield more, it's a tough grower, you know. It's kind of rare to see high CBD strains on the medicinal and recreational side out here in Colorado, 'cause it's tough to grow per square foot. You're trying to get as much dollar as you can. So, these other businesses seem to be cropping up that are specializing in the production of CBD, which is really probably one of the best ways to produce the molecule naturally.
Harley: Yes, I agree with you. I think that CBD really needs to be let into these states, even if cannabis is banned, I think a lot of attention needs to be brought to what CBD really is. It's completely non-psychoactive, it doesn't affect anything in the body in a negative manner. So, can you kind of explain to people exactly what CBD is?
Evan: Okay. So, there's lots of different cannabinoids that are made or that can be made that the cannabis plant has the ability to make. One of them, the most famous one, obviously, being tetrahydrocannabinol or THC. That's the famous psychoactive molecule from cannabis that everybody's pretty familiar with. But THC has what I would call a silent sister. There's one molecular change, a very minor change, between CBD and THC as an organic structure but it makes a world of difference the way that it binds in our bodies. And, because of that, it's completely non-psychoactive.
Harley: So, when we say completely non-psychoactive, can you kind of go a little bit more in depth with that on how THC affects the brain compared to how CBD would affect somebody's brain?
Evan: Great. So, like I was saying before, these structures are just barely different but, because of that, THC is like... You can think of it as an analogy between a lock and a key. And so, if THC is a lock and CBD is a lock, and we have these... I'm sorry, if THC and CBD are keys, we have locks within our bodies that they bind into and fit perfectly into.
And, although there's just a small structural difference, THC binds to receptors that are most commonly found in the brain and they are responsible for it's psychoactivity, whereas the CBD receptors are most spread out through the immune system and bone cells, and, obviously, without being in your brain, being distributed to the other tissues in your body, it doesn't give you that same kind of psychoactive effect.
It's a very small difference between the two. They almost look the same, if you were to draw out the structures. But, because they bind in different spots in the body, to different types of receptors, they have vastly different effects on what they do to us.
Harley: So, CBD really doesn't alter your state of mind, it is more in your body and completely spread out through your entire body, rather than just taking the full impact of everything you ingest into your mental state.
Evan: Precisely, that's exactly what's happening. Instead of all of these molecules hitting receptors in the brain, these molecules are hitting receptors throughout our body, that do tons of different kinds of things. Sometimes they help with inflammation or they can manage hormonal responses in the body to help balance irregularities.
Harley: So, when you worked with Merck and you were doing that to help people, how does that compare to being in the industry that you are now? Is it pretty closely related from what you see? Because I'm sure most people out there think that they're two completely different animals and they're treated two completely separate ways. Is the CBD industry really being looked at as a medical and pharmaceutical remedy and being treated in the same way?
Evan: No, to make that clear, cannabidiol is basically a herbal supplement. It's an alternative therapy or remedy that someone can use but it's not in place of any pharmaceutical prescription that's been recommended by a doctor. As far as oversight goes, although we can hold ourselves to certain standards when we produce CBD, there's very few external standards that are actually imposed upon us, so it's up to the producer themselves to hold themselves to a level that I would consider medically sound, even if we aren't considered a medicine.
Harley: Right, and, from my understanding, there's not a whole lot of those facilities because everybody's trying to be part of the green rush out here in Colorado and everybody's trying to open up the next store and have the next product and they're rushing everything out and not taking their time and not doing it the proper way, in my eyes.
So, when you're working with the CBD, I've been talking a lot the last couple weeks about isolate CBD and full-spectrum CBD products. I've explained it a couple of times but I think you might do a little bit better job for those that are listening, that are really looking to dig deep into this. Could you kind of go into that a little bit?
Evan: Yeah, for sure. So, like I was explaining before, cannabis is a huge family of plants that can express different varieties of things. Some express lots of THC and some don't express any THC at all. But in the natural state in the plant, the plant will never just make one single molecule, it's not energetically favorable to do so. The plant makes a variety of molecules and, in doing so, the plant makes a variety of cannabinoids.
And, so, the difference between a full-spectrum and an isolate would be that the isolate has actually had... You specifically removed and separated a specific kind of cannabinoid. So, say your plant made 1% THC and your plant made 5% CBD, well, if you're isolating it, you can strip away the 5% CBD without touching the THC. The full-spectrum would represent all of the cannabinoids in the plant originally and that would include a little bit of THC. That would also include some of the rarer cannabinoids, cannabigerol, cannabinol, CBN and CBG. CBG is being researched for lots of different functions and CBN has been popularised lately for its ability to help promote healthy sleep patterns.
Harley: Yeah, I've noticed that with the CBN. That's one thing that's really growing out here that I've been trying to get my hands on, because dealing with the PTSD and the sleep apnea and things of that sort, even THC isn't really helping me with my sleep too much. But I'm finding now that I'm getting more of the CBN in certain products, that that's really what's helping with my sleep.
And it's kinda crazy how I got started getting educated on the different cannabinoids because, when I first came out to Colorado, I thought it was just weed. I just thought it was medical marijuana, it was just one thing, that you smoked it or you ate it and it did what it did for you. But now that I'm starting to find out about all the different cannabinoids and, like you were explaining, different structures, how they fit like keys into certain parts of your body, your body holds them naturally. Seeing the benefits of different cannabinoids, it's a real eye opener to natural medicines that are out there.
Evan: Definitely. I think that looking at some of these therapies that this plant may have to offer us, leads me to believe that there's probably a lot of plants that humans have used in the past that should probably be re-examined for their medical potential.
Harley: All right, so, when CBD gets ingested into your body, can you kind of explain that process? Say that we were to take it through a CBD tincture, which is a liquid solution that comes in a glass bottle with a cough syrup dropper and you use that to drop it in your mouth and you take it just like an edible. Can you kind of explain how it starts to disperse to the body and how the body reacts?
Evan: Right on. So, cannabis extracts only like to hang out in things that are nonpolar. So, polar things like water, cannabis extracts won't mix into. So, what's commonly used to make tinctures are things like alcohol or, what's a lot more common these days, is a type of oil, coconut oil, sesame oil, olive oil. I've seen lots of different oil blends, butter. I've seen tons.
The extract needs a fat to bind to in order to be carried into your body. And, so, the tinctures are a great example of that. You eat a tincture and you swallow it. It goes into your stomach and your stomach acids and your enzymes start breaking down these fats and start getting to the CBD that's mixed in within and that CBD has to be carried through just like anything else that you'd eat. It's carried through your stomach and then the intestinal tract where it's absorbed into your bloodstream.
When that happens, the route sends it basically through the liver, which is your body’s center to break down whatever it can. The liver's job is to take anything that it thinks might be unhealthy for you and break it down. And when cannabidiol, CBD, hits the liver, you have enzymes in your liver that notice that it's not something that's naturally occurring in your body but something exterior and so it tries to break it down.
So, say that you eat maybe 100mg dose of tincture. After its digested in the body, it goes through your intestinal tract and is broken down in the stomach acid and then hits the enzymes in your liver and start to get broken down in your liver, you may only get maybe somewhere between 40 to 60 milligrams that are actually sent out from the liver and distributed to your tissues and your bloodstream.
Harley: Gotcha. So, that process, it takes anywhere from four to eight hours depending on your metabolism, the temperature, a lot of things. So, I've been hearing a lot about the nanoencapsulated products. Kind of explain the difference of what a nanoencapsulated tincture is compared to just a regular tincture.
Evan: Yeah, for sure. So, humans have been using hemp and cannabis as remedies for ailments for a long time. And the way that we normally administer them is called a parental administration. And, what that means, is your mom or your dad can give it to a sick kid, their sick child, in an easy way. And, so, that's normally like eyedroppers or nasal spray or, obviously, CBD tincture, something that you can put in your mouth or hold under your tongue or, for some unfortunate children, suppositories.
And, basically, the way that humans have dosed themselves with hemp and cannabis for the last 2000 years have been very basic, very what I would call rudimentary parental administration techniques. The way that Charlotte Figi was originally being treated for her CBD was with an RSO or a Rick Simpson oil, and, so, that was an ethanol extract of cannabis hemp and that was given to her in an oil form or in an alcohol base. And that's not much different than what the Romans would have been preparing for themselves in order to use cannabis to its full potential.
So, we tried to develop a nanoencapsulate to really try and fix some of the dosing issues that are classically found with cannabis. For example, normally we eat cannabis and maybe it's 45 minutes or an hour before you start to feel any effects and then, like I said before, you have enzymes in your liver that break down a good part of it before it can be distributed to your tissues, to even give you the effect that you need.
And, so, instead of just being the oil, like the CBD tincture, the nano is an oil in water emulsion. And, what that really means, is there's oil droplets, very, very small oil droplets that are suspended in water, like balloons floating in air, and the little balloons inside hold all of our CBD. We make these little balloons so small, we're talking about nanometers in size, that's why we call it our nano formula, but a nanometer means one one billionth of a meter and our particles are coming in somewhere between maybe 53 and maybe a hundred nanometers. That is very, very small.
In fact, it's so small that the particles themselves can slip between the spaces of your cells. And, so, when you put this nano on your tongue, which is delivered as a pump gel normally, you put the nano on your tongue and immediately the oil droplets are slipping right through the spaces in your cells and being delivered directly into the bloodstream, almost as if they had been injected.
With this method, you can bypass the metabolism of the liver that destroys that good portion of your active molecule. And, so, we can deliver a smaller dose of active molecule but we can ensure that the doses that we administer are almost fully absorbed in the body and, so, you don't have to worry about eating a hundred to get somewhere between 40 and 60. You eat five effective milligrams, you get about five effective milligrams, right into the bloodstream.
Harley: And with that, you can start actually the dosing to see what's really helping, so then you actually have an understanding of what's helping your body, rather than having to guess on your body's chemistry.
Evan: Precisely. This is a very new drug delivery technique that some pharmaceutical companies are adopting for certain formulas and they've found some real benefits to this nanoemulsion, as have we in exploring it with our CBD extracts.
Harley: Yeah, I can vouch for that, it is pretty instant. So, I have my anxiety attacks and my panic attacks every once in awhile. I've gone through quite a few in the last week. Usually I wanna isolate myself, my heart starts beating fast, I start getting the tight tension in my chest, things like that. And that's one thing I've noticed with the nanoencapsulated CBD. I can take a nanoencapsulated product when I start to feel my anxiety attacks coming on and before all the effects can really set in, I'm finding myself in a lot more control because it's actually being delivered that fast.
Evan: Exactly. It gives you a lot more precise control over when you dose, when you expect it to kick in and how long it lasts. Which, between the tincture and the nano, the nano further standardizes how our body metabolises it by eliminating a few variables between CBD tincture and nano. So the effects of single doses can be a lot more predictable.
Harley: Got you. So, on that note, how do you see the CBD being accepted in the future? Let's start in six months from now, where do you see CBD sitting?
Evan: Great. I think about six months from now, we've still got a lot of education ahead of us. I think a lot of people are still in the mindset of what is CBD? The step after that is what can CBD do for me, after you learn about it, and so, hopefully we'll be starting to tip the scales between people that are what is CBD and people that say what can CBD do for me. And I think that wave is definitely gonna be coming in the next six months. But it's definitely on the people in the industry, the CBD industry specifically, to help shoulder that transition. It's not gonna occur naturally. It has to be accompanied with education. A lot of free, available education.
Harley: Right, because the government's not really doing studies or allowing the resources for people to put the information out there. So, that's why I encourage anybody, get on Facebook, get on Google, just research CBD. As you start reading about it, you'll see that's there more and more and more CBD products, it's not just for one application or there's not only one way of using it.
There's been studies that have shown benefit in a wide range of things, depending on the method of ingestion, the amount, how stable you are with taking it. It's actually really pretty amazing. I've seen it help people with COPD, just from all the new CBD e-juices coming out that have CBD in them, rather than nicotine or tobacco, so it's getting ingested straight into the lungs, it's helping with things of that sort.
And then you also see the people after surgery, they're using the different salves and the different lotions and there's different types of those products. Some of them are helping with the pain that they're having from the surgery. Some of those products are helping heal the scars, and things of that sort, and help keep the skin soft, so it doesn't scar you up as much.
It's all about the education and how much you really research it for yourself because almost everybody has a family member that this could be helping but nobody in that family really understands what it is or what it is helping, so it's not even on the radar. And the way that the doctors are restricted, you try to bring it up and they don't even wanna talk about it. But yet, I talk to a lot of people that have all these doctors from New Zealand or different countries, they're world class doctors, and they're telling them that they need to start getting on the CBD train, they need to start using it not just as a medication for certain ailments but even as just a daily supplement, because of the way that it's interacting with the body and promoting its health.
Evan: I think it all seeds back to that education and it can't just be the general public too. I read a paper, just published a few years ago, that basically was a survey. These people called around to a bunch of different medical institutions, places that grant medical doctorates, and they asked these people, "Do you know what the endocannabinoid system is?" And an overwhelming majority didn't, and the ones that were aware of the endocannabinoid system taught very, very, very shockingly little of it to the doctors.
So, it's not just about educating the general public but it's also about being at a point where the medical community isn't so highly scrutinized for exploring these as options. Being able to talk about it in a medical institution as a form of perhaps viable therapy, is really gonna help the next generation in moving cannabinoid therapies forward.
Harley: I fully agree.
Dawn: Evan, I have a question.
Evan: Hi, Dawn, how are you?
Dawn: I'm doing well, thanks. I wanna address something that I hear a lot from people that are really new to cannabidiol, to CBD, and have just enough information to go, "No, no this can't happen." Here's my question, what I hear a lot is, "How is it possible for one thing to help so many different ailments? That just doesn't seem right." So, could you address how that process works? I mean, we're used to taking one thing for pain, we're used to taking one thing for anxiety, one thing for asthma and all down the line. So, how is this possible that this one thing can treat so many different things?
Evan: I know, it sounds a little bit like a magic bullet and anything that sounds too good to be true often isn't. And I'm not here to say that CBD is a magic bullet and it can't cure every ailment. There's a limited amount of research available to the CBD community, but I try to stay as up-to-date on it as I can. And I think the best way that I could explain it is that you have a lot of different kinds of diseases but, at their core, they're caused by dysregulation. Your body is basically out of balance in a certain way.
For example, if you have a lot of chronic inflammation, in the site that you are chronically inflamed, like say you had a bad back, you have cells in your back that are always sore and red and inflamed and they're constantly calling white blood cells to the area and natural anti-inflammatories and other, basically, injury responses to this site. Your body is basically treating your sore back as this long-term chronic injury. And, whether it's knee pain or back pain, the CBD helps recruit your body's natural mechanisms to be able to perform repairs.
So, when a cell is damaged or a cell is mutated, for the most part, cells are pretty good at self-recognition, they will what's called express, which is like raising their hand to the other cells in the body and say, "Something's not right here, I need some help." And they can do that in a lot of different ways. They can send off a lot of different kinds of signals to do that and some can be very tissue specific.
But, what we're finding is that in the body's natural recruitment process, one of these molecules can land to help this cell fix whatever's going wrong with it or make some other administrative decisions; ask the body to maybe kill the cell if it doesn't think that it's worth repairing. But there's a chain that has to happen, it's a cascade effect, A-B-C-D, these things have to happen in order, one molecule lands, then the other molecule can land on that one and do what it needs to do. And, what we're finding, is that CBD is involved in this cascade effect where it can basically help alert the cell to bring the healing mechanisms that the body naturally has to the site that needs repair.
And, so, we've even seen some studies of people that have worked with CBD and their insulin dysregulation—they're diabetic—and they've actually been using CBD to treat that. And so you say, "Wow, well how can this help "my sore knee or my sore back "and also help someone with diabetes?" Well, to put it simply, you have cells in your body, if you have diabetes, that are constantly asking for help and, if CBD can help natural recruitment, the body's natural mechanisms, it's a lot easier to reach a balance from within than it is to force something from outside. So, the difference, a pharmaceutical is really forcing these effects and, from what we've learned about CBD, it looks to be helping the body's natural own mechanisms recruit and help sites of infection or sites of inflammation, sites that require healing.
Harley: You know your stuff, Evan.
Harley: So, before we go into the break and start taking questions, I always wanna ask everybody that comes on here, exactly where they can point people to educate themselves and find their own information, because everybody has their own resources and every resource has its own pros. So, could you maybe tell us a couple websites or anything that you know of where people could look things up about CBD?
Evan: For sure. So, I would like to consider myself a hardcore scientist, in that when I wanna do research, I wanna make sure that it's peer validated by other peers in the field that can corroborate and scrutinise the studies. And, so, I prefer to look on things like PubMed, but we don't have to point to any specific websites.
To be honest, when people call me up and ask me, "Hey, can cannabidiol help me with blank illness?" What I honestly do, is I'll type the illness into Google and I'll just type in cannabidiol and whatever illness it is, and I would highly suggest that anybody doing their own research is doing a lot of research across the board to try and see if all these different websites are agreeing with each other. There's an unfortunate amount of misinformation going on. But I would say just use Google as a resource and common sense guiding whether you think the site or not is credible or whether it's kind of a BS website. You know, use all the clues for that.
Harley: Right. There's a lot of them popping up now and you gotta be careful on what you're reading and you have to make sure that you actually check the resource and you speak with these people. And any of these websites, any of the articles, they should have a "Contact Us" tab, you should be able to contact them, you should be able to get in touch with the people that you're looking for in the article and things of that sort. If you can't talk to a human, then I think that you should probably look for the next CBD company that's willing to really reach out and relate with you and put you in touch with circles of people.
Harley: There's one group that I went to a meeting last Saturday, Dr. Cohen from Boulder was at this conference and it was hosted by the Impact Network. They have a website called theimpactnetwork.org. I've really been digging into their site. For anybody that's really looking to educate yourself, it's a real good resource. They have a clinical cannabinoid medicine curriculum. The curriculum offers 12 CME credits, so you can use it for your continued medical education.
It's just good information to know, even if you're not in the medical field, because it has a lot of real information with a lot of studies all the way through, case studies to where they can actually talk about it on there. Again, the website is theimpactnetwork.org. I really think if you haven't checked it out, you really need to check it out. They do live conferences once a month out in Denver. They post all the time on the Facebook page.
So, if you're really looking to further your education on not just CBD but all cannabinoids, they're a very, very good resource. They have everything sectioned out for cardiovascular fundamentals, the legal aspects, pain management, psychiatry and mental health. It's a real good resource, so I encourage everybody to check that out. I just wanted to put that out there before we went to the break. If you have any questions, go ahead and feel free to call in. Right after the break, we'll be taking questions.
Dawn: All right. And I will make sure that we put that link on our website too. Okay, and we already have a couple callers. Let me get to the break and I can jump on with them and we'll get this thing going.
Dawn: Okay, welcome back, and we have our first caller. This is Denise, from California. Denise, welcome to the show.
Denise: Well, thank you, Dawn, I'm glad to be here.
Dawn: So, what question do you have for Evan and Harley tonight?
Denise: My question is, I have a genetic disorder. Does the CBDs help with genetic disorders that I was born with?
Evan: Well, that's a really good question. So, CBD can't change your genetic make-up, but, if you're experiencing symptoms like inflammation, CBD can absolutely help control some of those symptoms that you may be experiencing.
Denise: Thank you.
Evan: You're very welcome, Denise.
Dawn: Denise, did you want to go with anymore questions, like what type of symptoms you're experiencing or anything like that?
Denise: Well, my symptoms are, as I was saying, is a genetic thing, but it's mostly for joint aches and pains and stuff. And also to the fact that I'm going through menopause. I'm 51 years old and the two together are not mixing very well and I'm on Treplomet natural supplements, but I need something more targeted. The supplements I'm taking now for my menopause aren't working, I'm still hot flashing like crazy. I was hoping to have maybe something that works together.
Evan: Yeah, so, I'm sorry to hear that you have to deal with both of these things at the same time, but it sounds to me like you would be a fantastic candidate to start exploring CBD, maybe for some relief for maybe night sweats or hot flashes and joint pain as well.
Denise: Sure, thank you. I would love to have some information on that.
Dawn: Denise, I'll shoot you out some and I'll suggest some samples if you direct message me on Facebook. I'll send you some stuff out. And I too am also joining you with both of those exact same problems, so .
Denise: Okay, thank you.
Dawn: Well, I used to, not so much anymore because I am taking the CBD. Okie-dokie, let us jump on with Stephanie, from California as well, Stephanie, welcome to the show.
Stephanie: Hi, can you hear me?
Evan: Hi, Stephanie.
Dawn: Yes, I can.
Stephanie: Hey, how are you? Thank you for taking my call. I have a daughter who is 17. She has a history of about five years of
Dawn: Oops. Stephanie, I'm sorry. No, I hit the wrong button. I apologize, Stephanie. Could you start over again, with your daughter?
Stephanie: Sure, sure.
Dawn: I'm so sorry.
Stephanie: Okay. Hi, my name is Stephanie and I have a daughter who is 17 and she has about a five year history with anxiety, social anxiety, panic attacks and stuff like that and just in the last three weeks, she has experienced some depression and some anger and some fatigue and stuff like that.
So about, maybe a week ago, I started her on CBD vaping, and then also CBD tinctures, so she's been doing that daily, which is awesome, I'm excited. But yesterday we also started antidepressants, actually today was the first day. So, yesterday we went to the psychiatrist and I didn't tell her I had been giving her CBD because I didn't want there to be judgment. But maybe you could teach us how we can explain to a doctor like that we are giving our child this and how would we explain...
I don't know, I'm not educated, and I didn't want to tell her something I didn't know, I needed to back up, like why am I doing this? I don't know, because somebody told me to try it. So, my two questions are, how do we explain to the medical doctors that we're giving our child this product and then the other one is, is there a contraindication with anti-anxiety medication and then is this something that she should continue and could possibly help?
Harley: Okay, so, I can answer the second part of the question. I'll leave the medical part really up to Evan. But I can fully relate to the symptoms. As a matter of fact, this last week I've been dealing with the same thing. I deal with manic depression, my PTSD, the sleep apnea, the social anxiety, a lot of those things. So, when I came to Denver, one thing that really helped me get off of all of those medications was cannabis. I was on lithium, I was on clonazepam, I was taking about 30 meds a day for about a year and a half. I went through the whole VA regimen.
So I started smoking. I found out that THC wasn't the best thing, especially if I had any type of anxiety, the social anxiety especially, because it causes a euphoric high, where you go through ups and downs and that can cause triggers for your anxiety and things of that sort. So, I started getting into the CBD. I noticed as I was taking the CBD, I was still on some of my antidepressants and things of that sort. I started taking the CBD and pretty much about a week after I started taking the CBD, it really hit me that I was starting to have more control over that anxiety. I found I would still have that anxiety but it was more maintainable.
So, as far as the interactions with the meds, I've been on multiple different antidepressants and things of that sort. I didn't find any interaction. I currently have a roommate that is also a veteran, diagnosed with PTSD, he is currently taking antidepressants. He still needs the CBD for his flare ups. So, when he starts feeling the tight tension in his chest and the onset of those anxiety attacks, he finds himself vaping or dabbing a good amount of CBD and it helps restrict that. It doesn't completely erase it but it helps give him more control.
As far as the antidepressants go, in my personal opinion, I'm just not a huge fan of them, but that was just because of my experience and how they constantly changed my medication and it messed with my mind a lot. But as I've been learning more and hearing a lot more of these doctors out here in Colorado speak at these conferences. I'm a very, very strong believer that with certain conditions, CBD needs to be used in conjunction with a lot of Western medication. You know, antidepressants and a lot of the pharmaceutical stuff like that. So, I think Evan will be able to explain how to approach the doctor the best way. But that's just a little insight from my experience with anxiety and CBD.
Stephanie: You know, it's interesting, as a parent, I know CBD is totally not THC and it's not gonna get her high but it's just kind of like a whole, you know... Trust me, I'm not anti smoking pot but she's a minor, so I can't condone her doing things, so it's an interesting thing to keep saying, "Vape, vape. As soon as your feeling anything, just vape the CBD." You know, it's kind of a funny, you know.
Harley: No, I fully understand. So, I can really relate. I am a parent. I care so much about what goes into my son's body. I can fully relate to that and I can also fully relate to seeing you as a parent and really start getting that understanding 'cause it was the same way with my parents.
When I came up to Colorado, they thought I was just coming out here to be a stoner, lay around on people's couches, things of that sort. And it was weed. And now that they've seen how the CBD has really helped and has really changed my life from getting off all the pharmaceutical meds I was on, I mean it was to the point where the VA wanted to put me on unemployability because I was so unstable because of the meds that they had me on.
She has, not only her, but even my son even tells people that he sees such a change. And when he hears somebody say that it's drugs, he really tells them it's medicine. Like Evan was touching on, I just think it's huge on the education.
As far as the kids and it being used as medical, there are so many bills right now trying to get passed just in Denver to allow the consumption of the CBD oils and the tinctures and the CBD vapes for the kids that are using it to be able to use it on the school premises. And there's some places that are allowing that already, which, in my eyes, is a huge step, from coming from a family that they just looked the other way as soon as they see it.
Stephanie: Well, thank you for sharing.
Evan: As far as handling your doctor, I would say doctors are a tough nut to crack. Doctors don't like to feel that their patients are coming to them with more knowledge than they have and, so, I would use the approach of always trying to make the integration of cannabidiol a conversation between you and your doctor. So, not so much maybe a choice that you want to impose on your daughter but a conversation between you and your doctor, "Here are the medical benefits that I've been hearing about." and maybe encourage your medical professional to do some research of his own.
I've done the same and a lot of these doctors are coming back to me and saying, "Wow, well gosh, I learned a thing or two." And so that's my normal avenue to try and change a doctor's perspective, is coming to them and trying to include them in this medical decision that you're trying to make, instead of hiding things from them. Trying to involve them but also encourage the use of cannabidiol, if that's what you feel is necessary.
Stephanie: Right. I just didn't want her reaction, for her to freak out or something, because my husband is on board for us doing this and I didn't want to stop doing it, so I kind of just whooshed it under the rug for a minute but, you know.
Evan: There's a lot of different kinds of antidepressants that work in a lot of different kinds of ways. And I can't say that there is or isn't an interaction but, from the people that we work with on a daily basis, a lot of them have disclosed that they're on an antidepressant. It's not an irregular event. And we've never had an adverse reaction report from any of our users, if that makes you feel any better.
Stephanie: Sure, definitely. Well, thank you so much. I know intuitively, as little as I know about CBD, and as open as I am to learning and looking forward to learning, 'cause I've actually gotten so excited I'm actually wanting to, I forget what I'm called, the reseller or something, because I'm a massage therapist and, so, I want to start using...
Oh, that's a good question. I don't know if we have time for me... Okay, I'm a massage therapist and I bought a whole bunch of the products so I could try them out and so I have the different creams and stuff but, if I'm gonna use those types of creams on my clients, I have to let them know, obviously, right? And then I've asked a few people and it's like since I don't really know how to explain it, a few people are like, oh, maybe it's not even worth using because it's gonna take too long to ask them if they want you to use it and try to explain what it is. What would be an easy, quick, say, "Do you want me to use CBD cream on you "because it can do this" or what would be the simplest way to ask the question?
Harley: Yeah, I mean, I definitely wouldn't surprise anyone with use of that. So, in asking them if it's okay, I would basically just say, "We can use a normal lotion, which is just like a deep moisturizing lotion, or we can use the CBD enriched lotion, which can help anti-inflammatory pain if you have some soreness or muscle stiffness or even, like I said, deeper joint stiffness." I would offer it to them as relief.
Stephanie: Does it give immediate pain relief or is it like arnica, where it's fighting the inflammation but you can't really feel it relieving pain.
Harley: You know, I used a CBD topical product myself the other day for some joint pain that I had and I would say within maybe five minutes I was getting relief, like comfortable relief. So, even within maybe a 15 or 20 minute, a short massage session on the table, I think that your clients would hopefully feel something from that. But, definitely, in a longer session, like 60 or 90 minute.
Evan: I also think that it has to do a lot with the strength of that product.
Harley: And the carriers in it, definitely.
Evan: And the carriers.
Stephanie: Well it's a CBD balm. It's a cream and it's like 250 milligrams. I don't know if that's the whole jar or per serving. I imagine it's the whole jar.
Dawn: It's the deep rub. She has the deep rub.
Harley: Right, so with the 250 milligrams in the container, what that's saying is that there's 250 milligrams of CBD in the entire solution in that container. So, 250 milligrams, it just depends. I like to explain to people on the type of pain that they are also talking about. So, if they're coming in for a massage and it's a deep, deep pain like that, it's probably gonna take a little bit for it to actually set in, it's not going to be instant. But if it's just like a sore bruise or a sore muscle or something of that sort, you should feel some relief fairly immediate. But if it's an underlying condition, it's not gonna miracly just heal it but it's gonna help promote in the recovery of that site.
Stephanie: And is the balm or cream, is it an anti-inflammatory? Like icing or using arnica or something like that?
Evan: Yeah, I would definitely consider it an anti-inflammatory. And the deep rub, I believe, has arnica as one of its carriers.
Stephanie: Oh, wow. So it does relieve... Yay, oh, that's great. All right, well I've taken so much of your guys's time and I really appreciate it and I should get off the phone so someone else can come on.
Harley: No worries.
Dawn: Thank you very much for calling in.
Evan: Thank you.
Dawn: Okay, and now we have one final question. And I believe this is about pets, right?
Patty: Yes, my name's Patty and I'm from Oklahoma and I adopt and rescue a lot of animals and I have some that are older or have been abused and have a lot of arthritis and issues like that. And then I also have a lot of animals with anxiety. And I've kinda been looking online and it sounds like CBD might be able to help me with my pets. Have you guys worked with that?
Harley: Oh, for sure. We have a lot of clients that come in and want to purchase some products for their pet. If you've ever used something like a glucosamine supplement or chondroitin supplement for your animal, maybe you've seen them loosen up a little up a little bit and relieve a little bit of that stiffness. So, when the glucosamine and chondroitin supplements aren't working anymore-
Patty: Yeah, that's kind of where I'm at.
Harley: A lot of people are starting to reach for a CBD product to provide some relief for their animal. And from personal anecdotal stories, we're seeing a lot of great results with that. These dogs are more spry, they're willing to eat more and they're not sore, and laying around on the floor anymore.
Patty: And what about anxiety?
Dawn: I can actually speak to that, 'cause this morning, especially. My husband typically feeds our animals every morning. This morning I got up first and fed the animals. And we have a Labradoodle and he is quite the anxious pet. He has a lot of separation anxiety and, as soon as he hears the car come into the driveway, even though the rest of us are in the house, whoever's coming in, whatever member of the family, he starts just pacing, and whining, and barking, and crying, and gets all excited and can't wait for the person to get to the door. Then when they get to the door, it's like, "Oh my God, oh my God, where the heck have you been?"
And, so, this morning... He's a good hundred pounds or so, so I put six drops in his food this morning when I fed him and, when I came home from my meeting this morning, all I got was one bark, like ruff, like hello type of bark...
Dawn: ...and that was it. I was like, "Okay, that's really awesome." And this was a good four or five hours after he had eaten. When my husband got home, two hours later, didn't even do anything. Didn't bark, didn't pace, nothing. And then, when both of my sons, and this has been hours now, this has been more than 12 hours, still no crazy running up and down the house when people are coming home and it is just beyond shocking to me.
Patty: Wow. Well, is there any way to find out... Do you just kind of trial and error? How do you figure out how much you give an animal or does it depend on their weight or?
Harley: Well, with dosing with CBD, it's really hard to get into that because there's not really real studies that have been done. But, from the conferences that I have attended, I've heard Dr. Cohen, he's a very accredited doctor out here, I've heard him say multiple times to start low and then go high. So, you think that a normal milligram dose for the average human being is about five milligrams. It is something that is being absorbed into the body, so you have to... In my belief, it should be by weight. So I would say about five milligrams to every 180 pounds. So, if you had a 90 pound dog, it would be about two-and-a-half milligrams, which is usually about half a dropper of tincture.
Patty: Okay. Well thank you guys, I appreciate that. And I can't order this. It's my understanding that I can have this delivered in Oklahoma, is that correct?
Harley: Yes, there's certain companies that offer CBD isolate products. For pets, that's really what people have been getting into because it's flavorless and things of that sort. It can be mixed in with their treats and things of that sort. You just really have to get into Google, like Evan was saying, and do your research. Make sure you do the research on these companies to know what's being put in that product.
Dawn: And, also, a reputable company will be able to provide CBD testing results for the products too.
Evan: A reputable company will always be there to answer the phone for questions and answer emails, provide support. So, in searching for your CBD company, you're looking for someone that can reach back out to you and answer questions, not somebody that leaves you hanging with emails and phone calls.
Patty: Well, you guys have been more than helpful, thank you very much.
Harley: Thank you.
Evan: Thank you very much for calling in.
DawN: Okay, I actually have one more question, and this one was sent in, because she's in Canada and does not have a phone plan that will call into the U.S. So, Gerry's question was, I'm wondering why I get such intense psychosis with THC, even as little as 7%. It's much better now with pure cannabidiol and 1 or 2% THC and also the pain relief is much better as well. Still, I've never known anyone else as bad as I am when it comes to a THC reaction. So, any thoughts on that?
Evan: I actually cut out a little bit there and I missed the first part of that. So, he's asking about sensitivity to THC?
Harley: What she's trying to say, the reaction to the THC was so strong but she's way more comfortable with a lower THC but a higher CBD, am I getting that right, Dawn?
Dawn: Yeah, she's doing just the pure cannab- Yeah, cannabidiol with just 1 or 2% THC now and the pain relief's better too.
Harley: Yeah, great. With the CBD, it's being found to counteract a lot of the psychoactivity that happens with the THC, so when you intake THC, just because you feel a bit of relief does not mean that your body is getting any better yet. It's a psychological reaction and you're not getting the health benefits of the THC cannabinoid at that time, it's just a psychological effect that you're just not thinking about the pain and it's not sending the signals out.
With the CBD, it's finding that it’s counteracting that. So, if she's having higher CBD with a little bit of THC intake, then she's probably getting the medical benefits of ingesting the THC on a daily basis but not the psychoactivity because the CBD is help counterbalance that activity that would normally be going on.
Dawn: Oh, okay, gotcha, gotcha.
Harley: Does that sound correct to you, Evan?
Evan: Yeah, definitely.
Dawn: Very cool. All right, well those are all the questions that we have for tonight. Evan, do you have a wrap-up for us? Anything else you'd like to share?
Evan: No, I can't think of anything off the top of my head. I really appreciate you guys hosting me tonight.
Dawn: And we're so glad to have you. So glad to have you and thank you so much for the insight. Harley, do you have anything for us?
Harley: I just wanna thank Evan for coming on here again. Thanks for all the knowledge. I can't thank you enough for all that you're doing. And keep leading the way, man.
Evan: I appreciate you guys are doing all the education that we were talking about, that's so important to everyone. So, thank you guys very much for spreading all the word.
Dawn: Okie-doke. And we look forward to next week's show. Remember, we are on every Wednesday evening, 6 o'clock Pacific, 9 o'clock Eastern. We can be found at www.CBDtalkpodcast.com and, if you have any questions, just head over to the "Contact Us" and shoot us an email and, if you can't make the show, to call it in, we'll be happy to read the question on the show for you. And we will continue to update the site with more and more educational materials for you. So, thank you all. It's been a great hour, an hour plus, and we look forward to seeing you this time next week.
Thanks again for listening and be sure to tune in again next Wednesday at CBDtalkpodcast.com. Until then, stay happy and stay healthy.